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Sebastian M
Posts:1
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| 03/15/2008 4:13 PM |
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Unfortunately, we do not live in an ancient Greek city-state, where the heads of the household could gather in a small room and yell at each other over whose idea was best. We live in a nation of over 400 million, and every clueless 18-year-old has the right to vote if they so choose. The very notion of pure Athenian or Grecian style democracy presupposes a small city-state, as argued by James Madison in "The Federalist with the Letters of ‘Brutus’". Madison maintained (at the very foundation of our nation I might add, not later on in our nation's history) that that style of democracy lent itself to "turbulence and contention" and, in paraphrase, produced hasty decisions made in passion and unwise ignorance of the issue itself. Madison argued that a representative democracy, over and against pure Athenian democracy, allowed for a large and continually growing republic, and would 'refine and enlarge' the views and passions of the ordinary citizen by filtering the issues through an informed, qualified, and committed represantive elite (I know we don't like that word, but it is not meant in a sense of superiority, just availability to commit oneself to the task of legislation) who would be better able to 'discern the true interests of their country.' [A. Hamilton, J. Madison, and J. Jay, The Federalist with the Letters of 'Brutus', T. Ball (red.), Cambridge, 2003, p.43-45]
You see, the ordinary individual simply does not have the time, nor the patience, nor the savvy, to interpret all the incoming data necessary to have a pure Athenian democracy in such a large nation, let alone evaluate it and make a fully informed decision. All kinds of 'pork' and extra government spending would slip into each and every piece of legislation, rendering the current levels of 'pork' utterly insignificant in comparison. These bits of 'pork' would be added by the few political zealots, like those who take the time to write and post on blogs like these, who have the free time to waste on digesting all the information and devising devious ways to implement their idealogy on the unsuspecting general public. Hardly anybody would vote at all, and a very small percentage of those voting would be making informed decisions on their vote.
Before anybody even suggests it, I most certainly would not be surprised by how many people actually would care enough to vote, because I have been and continue to be surprised by how few people actually do care enough to vote in even a Representative democracy. Here in Kansas City, less than 10% turned out to vote for the Mayoral and City Council election (something incredibly close to home and important within a single city), more surprisingly, less than 2% of the inner-city population turned out to vote.
The very mention that pure Athenian style democracy, or even anything close to it, could work in such an incredibly large nation is as preposterous as it is naive. Absolutely Impossible. |
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John B
Posts:2
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| 07/07/2008 4:33 AM |
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Hello all. Well said, Sabastian!
I prefer the phrase "Constitutional Democratic Republic" to describe the government of the United States. Everyone, you can find the answer to this core issue in the words of the master himself, James Madison in "The Federalist, No. X". His language is a bit dated and his style a bit wordy, and this makes it a difficult read. But stay with it! In addition, there are two excellent sources that allow a glimpse into the practical duties of our "real" U.S. government by two men who served in it after the ink was barely dry. Both were commenting on the problems that were already becoming apparent. Try George Washington's Farewell Address, and Thomas Jefferson's First Inaugural Address. Currently, there is one political party that seems to have developed from the same concerns that fostered this website, and that seems to embrace the principles upon which this website is founded. Check out the Consitution Party. John |
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katrina s
Posts:4
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| 07/12/2008 9:23 AM |
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| Woodrow Wilson, pres during WW1, lamented the fact that we were no longer a nation of the free, nor even that of majority of voters, (apparently the problem was apparent even then) but under the dictates & rules of a handful of dominent men (who of course, were in constant contact & sat down with the SAME folks who had owned the huge plantations of the South, & unfortunately, as the rest of the whole world sees, & commiserates with us, the citizens, we are slaves; with all the apparent greed, corruption, & total fraud in voting, etc, most folks do NOT vote showing it is USELESS to vote and to show the world that in reality voting does not ever, nor will it, change what needs to be changed in our country which by the way is the WORST in the world! (in case you believed any of the propaganda YOU may have been led to believe otherwise); experts at lying & deceiving, claiming "truth is relavant" when top Clinton personnel pulled FBI agent in & took to task for telling the TRUTH under oath at grand jury hearing as revealed in book "unlimited access"; emails were shredded without even looking at them, Hillary's "supposedly great health care plan" carried out by her in White House: long time employees all let go to be hired by new at minimum wage & worked only 39 hours a week to prevent them from getting health care coverage; which could easily be done if so much manuvering on paper "showing" we are "broke" as a nation, while everyone willfully & eagerly thinking "easy money" & "free money" while billions of lives (tax payers $ represent hours, days, weeks & years of their lives) are fraudulently stolen, with glee! And all the while the mega Corps having folks working on multiple boards network to POISON the people in every way they can, while the PHARMA companies over bill over charge, PAY physicians & doctors offices to push prescriptions KNOWING that in reality they are harmful but hey, gotta have that new car, new vacation, & it's FREE for them! and millions suffer & perish & are poisoned with the LIES & MISINFORMATION & MISDIRECTION from "supposed" agencys like the FDA there to "give correct information";now onward & outward to world domination with same corruption to every nation; while the babies are poisoned with "johnson's Baby Shampoo with so many toxins & even time released formaldayhe (supposedly perservative) in actually no need at all; Growth Hormones put in baby's formulas which is specially packaged in toxic containers all in the name of population control; like the aids virus developed & sent to Africa with polio vaccines, for the same: by the USA; most diabolically evil & corrupt Gov known on the face of the planet; using more tactics used effectively by Nazi's to perpetrate the fraud, & with the same corrupt determination that the "powerful politician elites and wealthy" are a "SUPERCLASS" and not to be confused with the American citizen who has paid so much in additional taxes for aides to other countries repeatedly since Grandfathers day to daughters day & now on to grandkids that there should not BE any 3rd world countries at all; nor any without running water & septics & sewers cuz it just is NOT ADDING UP, folks; but WE are disparaged by Gov (US Gov folks started even the LIE) that all military personnel are mental cases while taking many of them out themselves, (don't think death squads aren't working in the USA today folks? WHY are so many service men dead every single year than have died in any war then folks? ) figure it out; like the gas attendent said to me the other day as he filled my tank: last time it was the Jews; this time, it is American Citizens; |
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Jeff J
Posts:5
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| 08/23/2008 5:01 PM |
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| Remember David and Goliath? Its people you are discribing that are all saying, `its impossible. So lets roll over and die`. This nations history is also full of people who cared enough for our country to accomplish the impossible. They bought YOUR freedom. The least the `general public` could do is fight for the greater good and keep what our forefathers paid for with their blood, sweat, tears and lives. Not for OUR lives, but the lives of our future generations that are trapped into OUR unwillingness to be David and tell the government `were not going to take it anymore!`. Otherwise, you can keep paying these politicans to take our God given right to speak up and act when someone takes something from you, and the past and future generations who gave it to YOU for free. |
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Matthew W
Posts:1
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| 11/13/2008 4:05 PM |
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| Although absolute democracy is surely not possible in modern society, it is definitely a good idea to work towards the standards of democracy, for they will only better the American government. |
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John B
Posts:2
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| 12/14/2008 8:23 AM |
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| Absolute democracy is neither possible nor desireable --anywhere. Absolute democracy means the majority rules. Since it rules the majority can vote to obtain anything it happens to desire at any time, such as looting the public treasury, or gobbling a person's property, or imprisoning a person or ending his life without due process. Absolute democracy is at its root capricious power. Thus absolute democracy cannot coexist with a nation of laws, but it can coexist with chaos, which is a state of affairs that cannot called a "nation". Since man's nature is to avoid chaos by making order out of existence, the question becomes, "What kind of social order through law is appropriate to man's nature?" The answer lies in the original intent of the Government of the United States. It was designed as a Constitutional Democratic Republic supported by the idea of individual rights, some of which are listed explicitly in the Declaration of Independence, though there are numerous implicit ones. Indiviudal rights are in turn protected by the Constitution, which was written to list (and therfore limit) the power of the federal government, bcause by its nature, it is a constant threat to individual rights. Although the U.S. is the greatest government the world has yet seen, it seems to me that we are drifting from the idea of individual rights (which must be held sacrosanct) to be replaced by group rights, which is not really "rights" at all, but power. Ironically this practice can lead us only to mob rule, which will be established by the most powerful mob at the moment. It will also signal the end of the original United States. |
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